r/technology May 27 '22 Helpful 1 Starstruck 1

Surveillance Tech Didn't Stop the Uvalde Massacre | Robb Elementary's school district implemented state-of-the-art surveillance that was in line with the governor's recommendations to little avail. Security

https://gizmodo.com/surveillance-tech-uvalde-robb-elementary-school-shootin-1848977283#replies
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u/[deleted] May 27 '22 edited Jun 01 '22 Gold This

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u/thebestatheist May 27 '22

That’s not all they were doing, they were also assaulting and detaining parents who had the audacity to want to save their children.

Fuck the police.

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u/PayMeNoAttention May 27 '22 edited May 27 '22 Gold

Well, yeah... but that was also before the police officers with children in the school went to their kids specific classroom to save them. Other parents? Stay the fuck back. Police officer parents? Go right on in to save your child!

Also, I do not blame the police parents at all for going in to save their child. I would have done the same. I blame the cops for not going in immediately, and I blame the cops for stopping other parents from going in. Who the fuck are you to tell me I can't go in to save my child?

edit To those commenting and sending me messages, I’m not claiming the parents simply grabbed their child and ran. Other kids in those classes escaped as well. My point is that those police officers ran directly to their kids room to break the window. Meanwhile, other police officers were detaining parents who attempted to do the same.

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u/ImmediateInfluence May 27 '22

I blame the cops for sacrificing the lives of other children so they could go home that night. Instead it should have been the officers sacrificed their lives so those poor children could go home at night.

It’s disgusting behavior that these so called officers exhibited.

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u/yeahright1977 May 27 '22

I saw a video of a fucking cop holding back a small group of parents and assaulting some of them and in the background you could hear the rapid fire coming from the school. They were essentially begging the cop to go help the kids or to allow them to go do it themselves.

I can't imagine how devastating that would be for the parents. It's just unimaginable to me.

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u/GroveTC May 27 '22

I'd imagine some officers got assaulted right the fuck back if they are actively stopping (Non cop...) parents from entering... right?

No one would be able to "verbally" stop such a parent from going inside, the only option is physically stopping them and they would need some strength to keep a desperate parent back.

What a shitstorm of a situation.

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u/yeahright1977 May 27 '22

They cuffed at least one mother who was insisting on entering. Now please, anyone explain to me how a woman that woman is such a threat that she needed to be detained.

The only explanation for their behavior is willful negligence. It is repugnant.

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u/GroveTC May 27 '22

Oh damn, so their job dictates them to handcuff a mother trying to do what they will not??.. Despicable story all around.

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u/yeahright1977 May 27 '22

Well I mean bullying brown people is absolutely in their job description. Her name is Angeli Rose Gomez so she was obviously a threat.

Once they took the cuffs off, she ended up jumping the fence anyway and got her two kids out.

Looks like they pepper sprayed another guy in the same group of parents.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/texas-shooting-uvalde-parents-handcuffed-b2088686.html

https://sports.yahoo.com/mother-handcuffed-outside-texas-school-202952406.html

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u/BernieAnesPaz May 28 '22

She did what trained, armed professionals refused to do, and had the courage to do it...

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u/hookisacrankycrook May 27 '22

What's even worse is when they finally took her cuffs off she ran to the school, jumped the fence and went in and ran out with her two kids. Literally did their job anyway!

Edit: saw you reply the same further down!

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u/yeahright1977 May 28 '22

That mother's story should be being run on every news station every hour on the hour.

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u/aron2295 May 28 '22

From the videos it looked like while the parents were going through the worst day of their lives, they were able to remain calm enough (not by choice, out of fear) not to take it too far with the cops for fear that if their child came home, they did not come home to an incarcerated or dead parent.

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u/WHYAREWEALLCAPS May 27 '22

This situation is one that has been brewing for years and especially with the GOP accepting all the religious nuts and fringy weirdos as a core backbone of their party.

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u/MathMaddox May 27 '22 Bravo Grande!

If only there were good guys with guns, right?

Oh that didn’t stop anything. Because the reality is people aren’t as tough and heroic as they think they are. If you think you need to carry a weapon to protect yourself you are more than likely a paranoid coward and the gun acts as a safety blanket. Obviously cops need to carry so it’s a bit different but the same outcome.

If I was a cop I absolutely would not want to be in a situation where I had to choose between my own life and an innocent, but I’d also be voting in politicians that TRY to remove that from being a reality.

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u/sirblastalot May 27 '22 Helpful

If a man with a gun is keeping you from saving the life of your child, I think that qualifies them as a bad guy with a gun, in fact.

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u/KicksYouInTheCrack May 27 '22

Excellent point!

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u/bills6693 May 27 '22

Obviously cops need to carry

Just a friendly reminder that they only need to carry because guns are so widespread in the US. Normal police officers in the UK do not carry guns, it is entirely possible. Normalising police officers being armed isn’t the only option.

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u/RS994 May 27 '22

See, cops in Australia all have a sidearm on them, but it makes national news when they shoot someone

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u/neurodiverseotter May 27 '22

Same in Germany. Even drawing you gun will result in a shitload of papework. Shooting it even more so.aybe that's was the US need - fill out 12 forms whenever you draw your sidearm. I wonder If this would result in less police shootings.

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u/LordCharidarn May 27 '22

I mean, the average beat cop does not need to carry a gun in America. Look at the officers at Uvalde; they had guns. Waste of taxpayer money for that weaponry and body armor.

Take the vests and the guns away from the regular patrol officers and traffic cops. Have them focus on deescalation and have SWAT or some other division that is armed that reinforces if there is actual gunfire.

Sure, some cops might get shot at, injured, or even killed. But I’ll bet you good money that the total number of deaths involving police officers will go down as ‘we thought he had a gun’ will no longer be followed by civilians being shot by police.

Officers throughout America have time and time again shown they do not have the judgement to exert the authority over the life and death of the people living in America. We should take away their toys until they can act like the responsible heroes they want to cosplay as

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u/riskybiscuit May 27 '22

the Uvalde PD apparently commands 40% of the town's budget. they also trained for an active shooter drill in Feb. to me this debunks both the good guy with a gun theory, as well as investing more in police theory. Maybe this will finally affect some change.

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u/LordCharidarn May 27 '22

That change will obviously be an increase in budget to the Uvalde PD. Obviously they are not getting enough resources and training. /s

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u/cabronsito97 May 27 '22

Well police are not legally obligated to protect you per Supreme Court ruling. So how are we supposed to protect ourselves? I don’t want to carry a gun at all but if the cops aren’t going to help us who is? Should we all just sing kumbaya?

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u/slickbeef May 27 '22

This says everything. Don’t support the police. They won’t save you. They might catch the person that kills you, but you’ll already be dead.

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u/MaestroPendejo May 27 '22

Here's a sad reality. I know a lot of law enforcement and have my whole life.

I know far more regular citizens that I'd put money on to step up and do the right thing than those fucking apes. Quantifying it, 4 of the over 30 people I know in those roles are amazing people. A few more are pretty decent but have shit priorities. The others are scum and actively lead to my disillusionment from the police as a whole. They're beyond horrific people that celebrate being horrible.

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u/Jwagner0850 May 27 '22

This is why I hate when people say "why don't you put your money where your mouth is and step up and become a cop" when you make a comment about the situation. Your statement is the exact reason why I don't want to. I know where my priorities are and my capabilities too. For the same reasons I won't become a surgeon or a soldier, I don't feel confident enough in my abilities to do that job and I don't want to put someone else's life at risk because I decided to do a task I'm not capable of handling myself.

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u/theog_thatsme May 27 '22

Because I'm not dumb enough, is my response to that question. You can literally test out of being a cop

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u/TacticalSanta May 27 '22

Yeah, its not like we couldn't have competent cops, its just they don't want them, because competence means they likely get paid less and its harder to run their corruption ring.

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u/Mr_Quackums May 27 '22 Gold

If your job is to protect children, no one cares if you go home at night. People care if the children go home a tonight.

If you can't handle that, then you shouldn't have signed up to be a "protector".

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u/erikmonbillsfon May 27 '22

Its crazy how police get all the glory now. More than even the military who actually are in mortal danger all the time. The chance of a cop being killed is so little its crazy how afriad they are. I have a dangerous profession where more people die every year than cops but I'm not being called a hero to risk my life. I dont get a pension. That's what you signed up for to be put in harms way. Other wise take up a new job.

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u/disastermarch35 May 27 '22

I read somewhere that in 2020 covid killed more cops than anything else and I still didn't see a cop in my area wearing a fucking mask

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u/DodGamnBunofaSitch May 27 '22

pizza delivery is a more deadly job than police officer.

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u/jacob6875 May 27 '22

A lot of jobs are more dangerous than being a Police Officer.

Some examples are Garbage Men, Delivery Drivers, Roofers, Construction Workers, Farmers, Firefighters, Heavy Machinery Mechanics, Crossing Guards etc.

A lot of Police Officer deaths come from traffic accidents as well.

Not saying it is the safest job around but you should be prepared that you will have to be in dangerous situations when you sign up for it.

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u/[deleted] May 27 '22

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u/ArchmageXin May 27 '22

The one that went in did, he is an off duty cop that got a lot of other students out.

And he came 20 minutes or 30 minutes after shooting started, so by then the tac squad was also breech and entering.

The real question people should ask is what were the first band of cops doing. Not that one off duty dad literally took a barber's shotgun in.

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u/BernieAnesPaz May 28 '22

I'm pretty sure one was off duty border patrol, not one of the local cops, and he kept clearing other kids and teachers after getting his. He was getting a haircut when his wife, one of the teachers, told him there was an active shooter at the school and that she loved him.

He borrowed the barber's shotgun and they went to the school together to actually do something meaningful while the cops that have been there for a while sat around tugging on their belts.

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u/SgtDoughnut May 27 '22

Because fuck other people's kids, only cop lives and cop adjacent lives matter to pigs.

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u/ArchmageXin May 27 '22

Just to be clear, the cop that went in was off duty, had to take a barber's gun, and got there only after the tac team arrived. And he also helped covering a lot of children out.

The ones you should blame are the cops that refuse to go in until tac team came. They were using training that is good 20 years old.

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u/Gendalph May 27 '22

Apparently that's not all: one of the cops told kids to ask (shout?) for help if they need it, and someone did, which gunman overheard and killed the child.

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u/throwaway_ghast May 27 '22 edited May 27 '22

This is exactly why all cops should have, at minimum, four years of rigorous and in-depth training before entering the force. We ask so much of our teachers but so little for the people who are actually sworn to protect our lives.

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u/medioxcore May 27 '22

I needed more training to be licensed as a fucking massage therapist than cops are required to have before they get a license to kill. Absolutely fucking bonkers.

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u/strangeelement May 27 '22

I think most modern countries have those standards. In my province police training is a college-level 3-year program + a probation period. Still far from perfect, but the US seems to do it just about the worst possible way.

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u/cabronsito97 May 27 '22

I blame the police officers 100%.

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u/Devilman6979 May 27 '22

I do blame those police that went in to save their own kids, they left the rest to die. They are culpable at the least and accessory at worst.

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u/-_MoonCat_- May 27 '22

It’s funny how the city allocated 40% of its funding on the police, but this is what they got

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u/ArchmageXin May 27 '22

Tbf, the one that media mentioned was off duty, and only showed up at the same time tac team was ready to go in anyway. He also proceed to help a number of other students out.

The question is what happened to the initial police response, why did THEY choose to stand outside. Or what happened to the town's super swat team...

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u/thebestatheist May 27 '22

bLuE LiVeS mAtTeR

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u/amibeingadick420 May 27 '22

What they really mean when they say this is: Blue Lives are the only ones that matter.

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u/Tattooednumbers May 27 '22

With tasers to drive their point home. So I guess the parents were expected to shoot the cops to get to the shooter who was shooting their kids? Can anyone make anyone make any sense of this, besides the gov and the sheriff? Oh, and Ted Cruz? Sickening.

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u/asdaaaaaaaa May 27 '22

I've been saying this for a bit now, but cops are eventually going to run out of good will. They've managed to fuck up and piss off pretty much every major demographic, even some who used to support them. Parents are the last group you want to piss off though.

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to see their lives get a lot more stressful soon, at least one can hope.

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u/Snuffy1717 May 27 '22

Which is why when the right cries and whines about how you "can't defund the police, who will save the children" we should be tossing copies of every newspaper covering this shooting them and saying "clearly not you".

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u/kizzle69 May 27 '22

110% agreed.

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u/erikmonbillsfon May 27 '22

Cops are bragging about how they don't care anymore since we protested a little bit. They are taunting us, they want to be called heros but refuse to risk anything since the public "doesn't appreciate them anymore". Which is fucking crazy cuz theres more thin blue line flags and stickers than actual American flags now so their fans have dug in deeper to make them glorified gods.

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u/blasphembot May 27 '22

Austin PD has all but openly said they don't give a shit because people voted to defund them. Even though it didn't impact anything in their day to day work. Petty, uptight children the lot of em.

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u/gimmiesnacks May 27 '22

40% of that city budget going to the police seems like appreciation to me

Also, police are the oppressors. Insisting the public (who is forced to pay for their oppressors salaries and tools of oppression) praise them is literally fascism.

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u/AbazabaYouMyOnlyFren May 27 '22

Yeah you're not a hero for putting on pants and a shirt and a badge, clocking hours every day. You need to do heroic things, like stop a maniac from murdering a bunch of little kids and school teachers.

That narrative needs to stop. Heroes need to do heroic things.

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u/kizzle69 May 27 '22

Which is fucking crazy cuz theres more thin blue line flags and stickers than actual American flags now so their fans have dug in deeper to make them glorified gods.

Dude, I am in Texas and I swear to god I have seen both a Ukrainian Flag and a Blue Line flag flying on the same pole. I literally spit out my drink I was laughing so hard at the hypocrisy. "We stand with Ukraine but, we also support turning the United States into more of a Police state just like Russia"

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u/Xikar_Wyhart May 27 '22

Honestly I don't think most people truly understand what the blue line flag means. They simply think it means supporting their local officers. Maybe they know them personally or just don't have an issue with the police because their town is quiet.

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u/Zealousideal_Bus_528 May 27 '22

My old drug dealer has a HUGE blue line sticker on his back window so cops don’t pull him over lol, it actually works. Cops r smert and bwave!

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u/1202_ProgramAlarm May 27 '22

Get that guy a Confederate flag bumper sticker and it's like invisibility mode for police

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u/idontwantausername41 May 27 '22

I once made a left handed turn at a red light (its illegal I know, im not arguing about that) . When the cop pulled me over he tried to say I was speeding and I had a scion xb which had a digital speedometer so I knew the exact speed I was going, 32 in a 35. He was going to give me a speeding ticket along with the ticket for the left handed turn and I asked what proof he had and he said I dont have to disclose that, you can take it to court if you want but it will cost you more than just paying the fine. I said im fine with paying more as long as I'm not being falsely incriminated for something that I knew he had no proof of.

He came back with one ticket and told me he'd let the speeding slide but I should show more respect to a cop the next time I have to talk to one, I just said hopefully they do something to earn it

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u/Tallgeese3w May 27 '22

The US is already a police state. We just get to pretend we have dissent. Take BLM for instance. Largest protests in my lifetime outside of the Iraq war. What was the result of both? Iraq war happened and cops have more money now than they ever have before. Conclusion, we have the illusion of freedom because we complain about all the problems that our leaders can afford to ignore because they know that they will never face any real consequences. When people protested outside a judges home leading to little more than a minor inconvenience for him look at how fast they passed a law to make that illegal.

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u/PartyClock May 27 '22

"If you're not gonna let me kill black people, I'm not gonna save your kids" is a bad hill to die on

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u/GoGoBitch May 27 '22

They weren’t gonna save the kids regardless.

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u/TwiceCookedPorkins May 27 '22

And they were gonna kill black people regardless.

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u/tsrich May 27 '22

CBS will continue to add shows glorifying cops

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u/[deleted] May 27 '22

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u/GoGoBitch May 27 '22

We should take all the police funding and give it to teachers. They are much more effective than cops at both protecting children and reducing crime. They should each get a cop salary and a teacher salary.

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u/Tallgeese3w May 27 '22

Texas just last month cut 211 million from its state budget that would cover mental health care.

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u/1202_ProgramAlarm May 27 '22

Let's also actually enforce the gun laws we already have. Several high profile mass shootings could have been prevented

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u/AbazabaYouMyOnlyFren May 27 '22

They could use some common sense hiring laws in law enforcement too.

The feds need some base guidelines. If states don't want them, they can do without federal money for law enforcement.

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u/Middle_Aged_Child May 27 '22

They’ve lost a solid 30% of the country and a solid 30% will be licking boots no matter what. It’s the other 40% who matter in theory.

But with our lovely electoral college and senate system, those 30% are enough to ensure nothing good ever happens. It’s really hard to see how this lasts.

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u/damienbarrett May 27 '22

Agreed. I don't think it will last. Whatever's coming in the next few years is going to be ugly -- as bad or worse than the Civil Rights Era upheaval, protests, and conflicts. Some event (or series of events) will galvanize action. I don't know how it'll end.

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u/QQMau5trap May 27 '22

Police as an institution, especially in the US protects the state and the private capital its built upon. Its not reliant on public support.

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u/scottieducati May 27 '22

While a few of the cops went in for theirs. Fucking despicable.

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u/asdaaaaaaaa May 27 '22

Don't forget telling other kids to call out. Guess they needed a distraction so they could safely evacuate their own children or something.

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u/scottieducati May 27 '22

They don’t even know the basic rules of hide and seek. Let that sink in.

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u/zhaoz May 27 '22

Turns out 'good guys with guns' cant do shit either.

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u/scottieducati May 27 '22

Actually one did. Off duty border patrol officer who drove from 40-miles away and went in and ended it while the entire town’s police force was rubbing their nipples with a thumb up their ass.

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u/DooDooBrownz May 27 '22

which one of those cowardly pigs was a good guy?

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u/nanan00 May 27 '22

I think that history has proven time and time again that cops are not the "good guys" they are the establishments thugs.

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u/Rocktopod May 27 '22

The problem is the cops weren't good guys.

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u/_illogical_ May 27 '22

And some were posting on Snapchat while they had their guns out

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u/thebestatheist May 27 '22

This awakens a level of anger in me I didn’t know I had

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u/EffyewMoney May 27 '22

And their proposed solution is “increase our budget so we can buy even more military surplus to play with”

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u/Zarokima May 27 '22

Every single officer there should be held personally responsible for every single death that occurred after their arrival. If they want to act as accomplices in an elementary school massacre then they should be treated like it. Worthless fucking pigs, all of them.

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u/series-hybrid May 27 '22

SWAT = Sit. Wait. Act Tough.

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u/Spare-Mousse3311 May 27 '22

I’m beginning to think this backwater pd NEVER took the trainings and just signed off the overtime pay… we all do it, in all our jobs BUT our jobs aren’t tasked with protecting people.

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u/heretrythiscoffee May 27 '22

Considering the track record of police and unarmed POC, it may have been better that they didn't go in.

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u/Myte342 May 27 '22

Technically they did exactly what they are required to do by the Court: Protect the public at large and NOT protect individuals. No seriously, we have dozens of court cases spanning 200+ years that say cops have no duty to protect people... Yet people get brainwashed with the idea that cops exist to protect us. No, they don't. They exist to enforce the law, period.

The govt sees no issue with protecting our kids with a plastic sign on the door while at the same time arrest anyone who tries to protect their kids themselves. Cops are trained to protect themselves and their partners first and foremost... any actions that put them in danger is to be avoided which is why we see so many stories of cops shooting first and asking questions later. The mantra of "I just wanna go home to my kids" reigns supreme in their heads... and they ignore that the person they killed probably just wanted to do the same.

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u/IrrawaddyWoman May 27 '22

Yes, but as you said, they exist to enforce the law. I can’t be SURE, but last time I checked it’s against the law to murder a bunch of children. So when that’s happening, I do expect them to step in and ya know, stop it. To enforce the “don’t murder kids” law.

I would go out on a limb and say that in most instances where people are asking to be protected, some sort of law is being violated.

What you’re saying is they enforce the law when it’s easy and convenient.

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u/WastedPresident May 27 '22 edited May 27 '22

When our car was stolen and then abandoned in a field the perps left a court ordered drug test receipt with full name and DOB of one of the 18-19 year olds that stole it. The police searched the car when it was found and didn’t find this piece of paper, but my mom and I found it while cleaning out the mess in the car (along w spent shell casings indicating it was possibly used in a drive by. The cops did nothing. The drug test receipt wasn’t enough to go find this kid who was on probation. “Not enough evidence” Like how clear cut does it get? The idiot basically left everything but a picture with his address saying “I did it”

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u/beangardener May 27 '22

When my apartment was broken into and my laptop was stolen, I had to track it down myself at an electronics resale shop. I reported it to the police and they kept it in holding for months. I spent finals week studying in the library. Even when we do their jobs for them they can’t get it right.

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u/userunknown987654321 May 27 '22

In our agency this will at minimum get you fired. It’s called dereliction of duty and is a crime in my state. You swore to fulfill the duties of a police officer - do it!

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u/CleverNameTheSecond May 27 '22

This is why I always cringe at those "911 we got your back" stickers and the like.

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u/Tearakan May 27 '22

Or those thin blue line stickers. They barely bother to do their jobs in soo many departments in this country. It's a joke.

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u/GiovanniElliston May 27 '22

Oh it's a thin blue line alright.

But unless you're a cop, you're considered on the wrong side of it & the line protects them from you.

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u/scottieducati May 27 '22

Oh I’m well aware of the legalese. It’s a damn joke. The horrifying part is seeing their cowardice play out after soaking up 40% of the town budget and cosplaying in tactical gear. Sit. Wait. Act Tough. SWAT.

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u/Semi-Hemi-Demigod May 27 '22

Yet people get brainwashed with the idea that cops exist to protect us.

That's not hard to do when one of the largest gangs in the country has "To Protect & Serve" on the side of their cars.

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u/[deleted] May 27 '22

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u/pizoisoned May 27 '22

If your cops are going to hang around doing nothing, then all the surveillance tech is good for is watching kids get murdered in real time.

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u/Joan_Brown May 27 '22 Wholesome

At least the panopticon can help us ensure teachers don't talk about gay stuff while they bleed out.

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u/tall__guy May 27 '22

Because guns might kill kids, but gay people make Jesus upset and that’s just so much worse

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u/Gilgameshbrah May 27 '22

They were waiting for the good guys with guns to arrive.

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u/largenumberofletters May 27 '22

When border patrol ends up being the good guys you know someone fucked up real bad

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u/[deleted] May 27 '22

I’m glad border patrol came and stopped the shooting but serious question, why were they even called in the first place?

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u/byneothername May 27 '22

Well, at least some Border Patrol people came because they had kids in the school. One guy was off duty getting a haircut when his wife texted him to help.

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u/[deleted] May 27 '22

Ohh that makes more sense. I thought they were called in. Very brave of them to go in especially when there was the fucking SWAT just standing outside

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u/TheBelhade May 27 '22

They weren't called, they heard what was going on and went on their own accord.

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u/maxximii May 27 '22

And then arrested them when the good guys tried to enter to save the kids.

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u/quantainium_pasta May 27 '22

That, plus you can't stop every attack with mass surveillance, especially if it's solo actions.

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u/Kumoufu May 27 '22

Cops only went in to get their kids out. Guilty cops assault parents trying to save their kids. Cops allowed shooter to enter building and did nothing for an hour. Border patrol eventually went in. Charge those cops!

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u/HappyThumb55555 May 27 '22

No, fire and blacklist them from the state for a first. Than consider legal and financial actions.

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u/Chicagoisashithole May 27 '22

What legal actions? Supreme Court has ruled multiple times police are not obligated to protect you

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u/HappyThumb55555 May 27 '22

Yeah, I'd be more concerned with blacklisting them and getting them out of the state.

A concentrated public campaign to shame and remove them.

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u/Waytooboredforthis May 27 '22

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u/ANGLVD3TH May 27 '22 edited May 27 '22

IIRC, Maine has a certificate process for all its cops. The program to get the certificate isn't really more intensive than anywhere else, but if they get caught playing stupid games they often get the cert revoked, making it impossible for any other ME PD to hire them.

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u/Waytooboredforthis May 27 '22

There are a few states that have pushed through a registaration program, but police unions push strongly against the idea and the programs have mostly been underfunded, so they've been pretty toothless so far. But I applause the effort on Maine's part.

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u/Ann_Amalie May 27 '22

Florida is probably already headhunting these guys. “Getting them out of the state” just makes them another state’s nightmare because they just get rehired. Remember, for some states, their behavior was a feature, not a bug.

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u/joejill May 27 '22

They took action and saved kids inside the school. They where willing to do this. The picked and chose who to save not based on where the kids where in the building, but because of paternal liniage.

Imagine being a kid or a teacher in the classroom where a cop entered and they took their kid out safely but left you behind.

I'd say that emotional distress is cause enough to sue the state if they dont take action against these cops.

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u/Arntor1184 May 27 '22

Agreed. It’s hard to judge the competence of any other system here when the main system failed. The police let that monster into the school and the police sat outside for near an hour while he murdered a classroom full of children.

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u/ThatGuytoDeny165 May 27 '22 Silver Facepalm

I worked in the security industry for 10 years, specifically around facility security that included schools, it’s kind of the quiet part no one says out loud…none of the things being sold stop shootings they just may minimize total casualty count. Vestibules, bullet proof glass, panic buttons, etc all simply slow shooters down or they speed up response but none stop anything.

At the end of the day you can’t keep a mouse out of your house and you can’t keep a motivated threat out of a location that is full of kids. It’s too easy to breach because of human nature of opening doors for people and not wanting to be a “jerk” for not letting them in. I’d go on site visits and often the front desk would buzz me in with a roller briefcase with equipment without even asking who I was. Kids themselves prop doors open to get stuff from outside that punch holes in any security.

I’ll give people an example of why hardening schools is stupid. If that guy was so motivated to shoot kids at that school doors/fences/ people at front door don’t matter…you just wait until they go to recess. Want to create total chaos? Do it at pick up as kids funnel out a single entry point towards buses/parents and then can’t easily reverse flow of the choke point. Literally, a motivated shooter can’t be stopped if they want that target and have the time to sit around and think about it.

The safety and security complex around “school security” is one of the biggest wastes in the country. They all know it and are just sitting around hoping the next school that gets shot up doesn’t have their stuff in it but rather their competitors so they can say “see it wasn’t us, our stuff works”.

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u/TootsNYC May 27 '22

One of the earliest shootings was two kids who pulled a fire alarm, hid in the woods outside the school yard and shot kids as they came out

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/a-school-shooting-in-jonesboro-arkansas-kills-five

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u/ThatGuytoDeny165 May 27 '22

Yep you take the target from their protection.

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u/TootsNYC May 27 '22

And Ted Cruz tweeted he thinks schools should have only one door.

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u/ThatGuytoDeny165 May 27 '22

Aside from the huge fire danger that poses there are other issues. One of them being is to renovate all existing schools would cost hundreds of billions of dollars and take years. The other as your referencing is that it actually creates a shooting gallery for an external shooter.

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u/BoomerJ3T May 27 '22

Now imagine that with someone inside and outside. Its almost like Cruz doesn’t give a shit.

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u/Ghier May 27 '22

Yeah thats a station nightclub waiting to happen. That one door could also be barricaded and then no one can escape.

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u/TheSilverNoble May 27 '22

"Oh my god liberals, you want your kids safe from guns and fire when they're at school? You need to stop trying to control everything and let people have their freedoms."

  • Ted Cruz in a few days, probably
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u/Alltherightythen May 27 '22 Wholesome

In the military they call that a kill box.

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u/I-WANT2SEE-CUTE-TITS May 27 '22

One that opens in Cancun?

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u/FilthyStatist1991 May 27 '22

Yeah. NFPA would call that an egress violation but I don’t write policy….

2ndly pulling a fire alarm “legally” disengages mag locked doors. Which have the strongest holding power, however they require power, also shooting a mag lock would make it stop functioning…

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u/Slaviphile501 May 27 '22

As someone who was head of facilities at a school for awhile I've observed the same thing. At one point we were screening kids with metal detectors as they came in for class, which then caused a huge chaotic crowd outside the front doors because it took forever. I looked over at the principal and said "if a kid was gonna try something, they're not gonna bring the gun through the detector, they'll just do it now. We handed him the best opportunity." And they promptly stopped doing it.

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u/ThatGuytoDeny165 May 27 '22

Yep, metal detectors are the worst things for schools. It’s a permanent deterrent that is known and acknowledged so it’s the first thing the shooter will think about overcoming in planning.

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u/MadManMax55 May 27 '22

Most metal detectors at schools aren't meant to stop spree shooters. They're there to stop gang/drug related violence in the school buildings. Kids trying to bring in knives or guns to threaten or attack one or two specific people, not the whole school.

It's still not a great system, as it just moves that violence off campus. Plus having to go through security everyday doesn't exactly lead to a conducive learning environment. But in areas with really high crime rates they're sometimes necessary.

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u/ThatGuytoDeny165 May 27 '22

Right, the marketing for them in recent years though pivoted to be an active shooter prevention tool. It’s part of that bigger picture issue I’ve mentioned of the sales machine being more worried about money than effectiveness.

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u/murrly May 27 '22

Same thing for airports.

The security screening line is a shooting gallery waiting to happen

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u/stormhunter2 May 27 '22

if a kid was gonna try something, they're not gonna bring the gun through the detector, they'll just do it now. We handed him the best opportunity."

This is the same reason airports need to rethink their security protocols.

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u/Petah_Futterman44 May 27 '22

After having also done a decade of physical security for numerous different types of buildings, I fully agree.

I like to equate it to the “black market” that can be found in prisons. Prisoners are constantly getting shit they aren’t supposed to in buildings/facilities that employ hundreds of armed guards, the strictest hardening measures, body searches, etc.

You think you’re gonna stop someone at a school when you cannot stop contraband entering prisons? You’d have to make the school MORE SECURE than a PRISON. and I absolutely don’t see that occurring. At all.

Recess, bus loading and unloading, sporting events outside, field trips. All easy targets that building hardening cannot solve.

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u/bazooka-joey May 27 '22

Between the article and your response, it sums up that we’re spending too much time, energy and resources on the wrong things. Schools in my state are constantly losing funding and stretching thin the best resource we have: people. If you’re too busy to hear something, saying something isn’t going to make a damn bit of difference.

I have lucked out so far with my kid’s school district, but neighboring ones are getting bled dry and not trusted to actually teach. The emotional stress these teachers are experiencing isn’t going show up on administrative budgets, but it’s going to be a heavy price to pay.

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u/SaffellBot May 27 '22

We are looking for technology, guns, and police to solve our social issues. As long as we look everywhere but at the problem children will keep dying.

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u/mtarascio May 27 '22 edited May 27 '22

It's also just time.

People don't stay vigilant if they don't see a need to be.

Most schools will never live through an incident like this, so you are asking people with decade+ long careers without incident to remain extremely vigilant every hour and day of every week.

This is even a problem at jails, you're never going to get a good security at a school.

That's not even bringing in the psychological issues it can bring out in children from being in locked down environments such as well. Instead of it feeling secure, it instead brings them fear and paranoia, which are not good for social emotional learning or academic learning.

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u/Crypt0Nihilist May 27 '22

This is effectively what a guy did at an Ariana Grande concert in the UK, waited until everyone was leaving before attacking.

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u/Midnitebombr May 27 '22

Agreed. I have to develop mitigation strategies to harden industrial facilities. The idea of "preventing" an inside attack is so stupid. You can slow them down or you can have a faster reaction to an attack, but you can't prevent a motivated attacker. The idea that if someone just locked the door this would not have happened is moronic and dangerous. Students and employees have a deep knowledge of the defense systems in place. Locks only stop the lazy.

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u/ThatGuytoDeny165 May 27 '22

Everyone in the industry knows it but it’s the quiet part no one ever wants to say in public because there are big dollars tied to the fallacy around it.

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u/chrisdh79 May 27 '22

From the article: According to UCISD’s security page, the district employed a safety management system from security vendor Raptor Technologies, designed to monitor school visitors and screen for dangerous individuals. It also used a social media monitoring solution, Social Sentinel, that sifted through children’s online lives to scan for signs of violent or suicidal ideation. Students could download an anti-bullying app (the STOP!T app) to report abusive peers, and an online portal at ucisd.net allowed parents and community members to submit reports of troubling behavior to administrators for further investigation. As has been noted, UCISD also had its own police force, developed significant ties to the local police department, and had an emergency response plan. It even deployed “Threat Assessment Teams” that were scheduled to meet regularly to “identify, evaluate, classify and address threats or potential threats to school security.”

And yet, none of the new security measures seemed to matter much when a disturbed young man brought a legally purchased weapon to Robb and committed the deadliest school shooting in the state’s history. The perpetrator wasn’t a student and therefore couldn’t be monitored by its security systems.

UCISD didn’t adopt its new measures in a vacuum. The district implemented them not long after a 2018 shooting in Santa Fe, Texas that killed eight high school students and two teachers. In the wake of the massacre, Gov. Greg Abbott passed new legislation and published a 40-page list of recommendations to enhance school safety. The list, among other things, included using technology to “prevent attacks.” The governor also recommended increasing the number of police officers at schools, deepening ties between local law enforcement and school districts, and providing better mental health resources for students.

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u/CayceLoL May 27 '22

The perpetrator wasn’t a student and therefore couldn’t be monitored by its security systems.

I think there's a quite glaring weakness in the system.

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u/arandomsadredditor May 27 '22

It also used a social media monitoring solution, Social Sentinel, that sifted through children’s online lives to scan for signs of violent or suicidal ideation

WTAF?!?!?!?

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u/qexk May 27 '22

"The most ethical approach to a holistic view of your district’s overall safety and wellness." - Social Sentinel

How did they manage to get approval from every parent (which is required to mine emails and social media posts of minors afaik) to use this service?

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u/Lumpy-Dingo-947 May 27 '22

Slip it in the fine print with the 30 other pages of other stuff you sign in the start of the year open house packet?

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u/thunderchunks May 27 '22

Imma bet it gets presented alongside other more reasonable things that you "have" to sign off on and nobody really read the fine print. Like, here's the forms giving permission to use the online homework portal oh, and mumble mumble we're tracking your kids online activity in it's entirety and selling it to anybody that asks mumble mumble online safety measures. Sign at the bottom.

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u/Afrazzle May 27 '22

This is very creepy

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u/dolerbom May 27 '22

I love how on top of everything we have more useless fucking apps being touted as safety solutions only to turn out to be a complete waste of money.

Our society seems wholly incapable of enacting practical solutions to this mass shooting crisis. We have useless police departments, a crippled investigatory body, and hundreds of predatory "safety professionals" convincing schools to waste millions on impractical and invasive non-solutions.

There are two things that cause mass shootings. Distressed young men, and their access to guns. Any solution that doesn't involve deradicalizing young men or preventing them from accessing guns is almost always a waste of time and resources.

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u/agha0013 May 27 '22

Oh they aren't a complete waste of money, look at all the data that company gets its hands on!!!

Oh wait, yeah for tax payers it's a complete waste of money. For the provider it's a wonderful double bonus as they sell it through lucrative government contracts, and sell all the data

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u/o0joshua0o May 27 '22

The police officers turned out to be worthless, too.

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u/oDDmON May 27 '22

“Children are dying!”

“Wait for backup.”

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u/lightknight7777 May 27 '22

You wait for backup when it's a hostage situation. When it's an active shooter incident the most you wait for is your bullet proof vest and a helmet.

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u/PaulWilliams_rapekit May 27 '22

That has been true for quite some time but people don't want to believe it.

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u/FilthyStatist1991 May 27 '22

So. I know Raptor, it’s nothing state of the art. It’s a license reader that screens people if they are on a sexual offender list. Not for dangerous individuals, I’ve installed Raptors systems. They are not intended for life safety in the slightest.

I’m really wondering what type of camera system/card access system they had.

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u/AskMoreQuestionsOk May 27 '22

So, potential shootings are enough of a problem at my office (I guess it attracts crazy) that we have mandatory training for it. They teach run, hide, fight. And we’re definitely not allowed to carry on site if you are not security, we asked. All this other stuff is for detection and keeping young people from becoming violent people. Nothing wrong with it, but it’s almost as much of a duck shoot at my office if you get in the building as it is at any school once a shooter breaches the exterior door. We are told to look out the window and call in anything strange.

So, if you think the threats are going to be external, you need to have better staff reaction to strangers on campus, e.g cameras covering outside and people looking at them, harden the external doors and get better police response time. All to keep an external threat outside as long as possible. Have a protocol so that anything that deviates from normal gets an immediate call to police. And the police need to do their job.

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u/ranger_dood May 27 '22

harden the external doors

Or at least make sure they're locked. Also, security cameras only work to PREVENT situations if you pay someone to sit there and look at them. Otherwise, they're only useful after the fact, or at the very least after the event has started and people's lives are already at risk.

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u/ranger_dood May 27 '22

None of those measures are really intended to stop school shootings. Raptor scans visitor IDs against the sex offender database to make sure you're not letting a pedo into your school. Social Sentinel only helps if the student is using a school device to make their posts. Anti-bullying and other reporting systems only work if people are close enough to the suspect to make reports (IE- not a random girl in Germany).

They didn't help in this instance, but they do still serve a purpose.

What would've helped in this instance is if the outside doors were all locked, which is something that all schools have been doing since Columbine. People suggesting that "he would've just shot the lock out" don't really know how exterior commercial doors work. The fact that he was able to just walk up and open a door is a major issue. If he had yanked on that door and it was locked, while being chased by officers, the outcome of this could've been much different.

What happened after was also 100% opposite of everything I've been taught as a K-12 admin, but until there's a hardened timeline put together of all the events, it's hard to say where the breakdown occurred. The immediate emotional response is that the police were not doing their jobs, and that may very well end up being true. It just baffles me that anyone who's been through ALICE training and had active shooter scenarios drilled into their heads would react the way it appears they did.

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u/Normal-Computer-3669 May 27 '22

Security is only as good as the human reactions to it.

TSA for example is security theater, but a threat in the airport, TSA is more likely to swarm you and do something.

40 HD cameras but a handful of security guards, all they'll do is call the police. And well, police apparently are busy tasing concerned parents so...

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u/strike_one May 27 '22

TSA won't swarm, the local police or airport security will. Nobody in the TSA is trained to do anything other than screen.

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u/drunk98 May 27 '22

Throwing away my goddamn shampoo cause it 2oz over the limit

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u/sorryyourecanadian May 27 '22

Molesting me because their machine doesn't know what a fold in my clothing might be

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u/HardwareLust May 27 '22 edited May 27 '22

Surveillance isn't going to do shit when cops sit on their fat asses for the better part of a fucking hour before entering the school.

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u/aerger May 27 '22

Didn't you hear? They were scared their body armor, superior numbers, superior firepower, and expensive training, costing roughly half the the town's annual budget, wouldn't keep them from getting shot like a bunch of helpless schoolchildren. I mean, WON'T SOMEONE THINK ABOUT THE POLICE?

Those children, baaaah.

all /s ffs, to be clear

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u/8to24 May 27 '22

We don't provide all children meals, paper, computers, etc. Teachers often buy pencils and pens for kids out of pocket.

Our public education budget is hardly enough to take care of the basics. Now schools have to invest in security surveillance systems and other expensive safety equipment. Something has to give. Something has to change.

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u/Dwn_Wth_Vwls May 27 '22

The Iraq war cost $700 million a day at its height. Don't believe anyone when they say this stuff is too expensive. We could find the money if we wanted to.

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u/herefromyoutube May 27 '22

Dude our current military budgets is over $2 Billion a DAY.

And we aren’t even in a war.

military industrial complex is bleeding is dry.

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u/listur65 May 27 '22

I am fairly certain the majority of schools got grant money for camera/door systems. There were billions of dollars in grants for schools to do this.

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u/[deleted] May 27 '22

where would you find profitable cheap oil in protected schools? /s

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u/lilrabbitfoofoo May 27 '22

It's the Lives of Americans and their children vs. the obscene profits of the gun manufacturers.

Guess who's been winning that war since the 1970s?

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u/Showerthawts May 27 '22

Surveillance tech and cops failed. Maybe we need to start spending money at the root of our problems. What a novel idea.

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u/takesthebiscuit May 27 '22

The surveillance tech did exactly what it was designed to do.

Take money from the tax payer and deliver it to the corrupt politicians that approved it

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u/diggybop May 27 '22

Doesn’t fucking matter if the cops are too pussy to even attempt stopping the shooter

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u/just_hating May 27 '22

The surveillance tech being implemented wasn't about making the children safer, it was about using the children's safety to score a government contract for a company that they are invested in. Like all the other crap they funnel through education. Kids in public school aren't students, they're bargaining chips.

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u/[deleted] May 27 '22

Ted Cruz sez there were too many doors. We need to shut down Big Door.

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u/thezbone May 27 '22

It's almost like schools have a lot of doors because they were designed for students to be able to evacuate easily in case of an emergency. It's not that everyone just thought doors in school looked cool. A completely unsurprising take from the doltish lizard person that is Ted Cruz.

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u/[deleted] May 27 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/ThaFuck May 27 '22

And arrest "easy targets" while it's all happening, like panicking parents right outside the school grounds.

That video has become synonymous with the word "cowardice" for me now. First thing I think of. The faces of those cops. So much about it and the underlying context is textbook representation of the word. Pure, simple, cowards who are nothing more than government funded larpers.

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u/Love_To_Burn_Fiji May 27 '22

Cowards. Pretty much sums up the police there.

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u/tommygunz007 May 27 '22

"Surveillance doesn't protect you. It only protects the insurance companies".

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u/darkstarman May 27 '22

Surveillance isn't about protection. It's about control.

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u/Christopher3712 May 27 '22

The fault lies with taking recommendations from governor Abbott.

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u/oDDmON May 27 '22

Came here to say the same. This is the dude that’s given grid operators a pass for years, still few connect those dots.

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u/stemcell_ May 27 '22

He also slashed the budgets of mental health facilities, guess where the money went. You guessed it yo pay the army reserves of the state to wander around on the boarder

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u/Speculawyer May 28 '22

All of that money was completely wasted to protect the precious gun fetish.

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u/tmhoc May 27 '22

Big brother, backing the blue, good guys with guns.

You mean it was all just bullshit?

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u/pballer2oo7 May 27 '22 edited May 27 '22

Big brother, backing the blue, good guys with guns.

One of these is not like the others.

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u/dethb0y May 27 '22

yeah no shit, in a super fast-evolving situation like that, surveillance literally can't stop the event because there's not enough time and there's no resources that could stop such an event.

Let's say you have a typical school entryway. A subject walks in. The cameras see them. Assuming someone is monitoring the surveillance (big assumption..) what are they going to do, but call for help? At that point, the subject has already gotten where their going (because no help is faster than them walking) and the situation's already out of control.

Without something - a locked door, an airlock, what have you - to slow the subject down, all surveillance is going to do is let you reconstruct a really accurate timeline.

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u/loobricated May 27 '22

It’s fucking grim watching Americans go on this merry go round after every mass shooting, for decades now, trying to find solutions that are not the most blatantly obvious ones.

Like watching someone with a leak in his roof, replace the windows, then the carpets. Then the front door, then the brickwork pointing, wondering why the roof keeps leaking.

Fix the roof. Restrict access to military hardware that is designed to administer death, and do it very fast. At present it looks like guns are more important than kids. As others have said ad Infinitum, this only happens in the US. Nothing about it is that complicated.

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u/CaptainPixieBlossom May 27 '22

So, maybe instead of sacrificing everyone's privacy by turning the U.S. into a surveillance state, we could just, you know, do some background checks and not sell semiautomatic guns to people who aren't old enough to drink.

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u/mhutch312 May 27 '22

All the security and tech in the world won’t save you from an unlocked door