r/formula1 Kimi Räikkönen Dec 05 '21 Take My Energy 1 Wearing is Caring 1 To The Stars 1 Spit-take 1 Pirelli Hard 1 Helpful 30 Gold 3 Wholesome 26 All-Seeing Upvote 1 Giggle 1 Facepalm 1 Silver 22

Max has been given a 10 second time penalty post race News /r/all

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21.6k Upvotes

8.6k

u/alekru Dec 05 '21 Silver Helpful Wholesome Take My Energy

Doesn't change the results for those wondering

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3.3k

u/TheScapeQuest Brawn Dec 05 '21

Still 6 seconds ahead of Bottas, so no impact on the results.

The 2 penalty points are more significant going into the '22 season I imagine.

836

u/LemmiwinksRex Dec 05 '21

Yep. He's picked up 5 penalty points in the last two races. And his other 2 were from September. That gives him only 5 to play for the first 16 races of next season... assuming he stays out of trouble next weekend.

233

u/armored-dinnerjacket Dec 06 '21

what happens if max gets to the magic 12

380

u/jaydec02 Pirelli Wet Dec 06 '21

He would get a one race ban

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43

u/firefighterEMT414 Max Verstappen Dec 05 '21

Yes, especially since the first points won’t come off until September as they were incurred in Monza on 12 September.

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1.2k

u/Jofflecopter Dec 05 '21

I remember people using penalty points as the reason Max was the cleanest... racking them up this year

507

u/dakness69 Valtteri Bottas Dec 05 '21

It's a little out of date, but the real irony is that Verstappen has acquired a fair number of penalty points across his career.

235

u/pink__frog Dec 05 '21

What did Hamilton do in 2020? Nearly half of his career points earned.

780

u/DaMeridian Fernando Alonso Dec 05 '21

Ignoring yellow flags in Austria quali, crash with Albon in Austria, entering closed pit lane in monza, illegal practice starts in sochi.

132

u/pink__frog Dec 05 '21

Thanks. I remember most of these now.

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u/p1en1ek Pirelli Wet Dec 05 '21

I think that they took his penalty points for Sochi after some time?

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u/dakness69 Valtteri Bottas Dec 05 '21

https://f1.fandom.com/wiki/Penalty_points#Active

See both the active and inactive sections.

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140

u/straighttothemoon Dec 05 '21

To be fair, penalty points are a lot like a white and black flag, or how track limits are enforced. There's a certain amount you can get away with according to regulation before you actually get punished. Max (in my eye) has always been ruthless in this regard, and will try to make an advantage for himself in any way short of getting punished, even if that means fines/pts/warnings w/e.

That's why you've seen Damon Hill so vocal this week. He first hand how Verstappen can clinch the title, and there's really no regulation to prevent him from doing it. Oh, a few more penalty points on his record in exchange for a title?

63

u/Drauren Dec 06 '21

Penalty points are a resource, just like engines...

7

u/straighttothemoon Dec 06 '21

Exactly, that's an extremely concise way to state it.

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u/KalconFick Dec 06 '21

Damon knows firsthand the outcome of such shenanigans.

40

u/Cargeek3 Daniel Ricciardo Dec 06 '21

Yeah that’s one of the most F1 endings possible though. So many of the great title battles in the sports history have one driver “losing control” and crashing into the other and i wouldn’t be surprised if liberty wasn’t looking for a repeat

18

u/KalconFick Dec 06 '21

As the great Murray always said: "Anything can happen in F1"

9

u/fiywrwalws Dec 06 '21

And it usually does.

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8.4k

u/DenjelRic Daniel Ricciardo Dec 05 '21 Silver Helpful

Oh no, dropped to P2 from P2

2.8k

u/khamrabaevite Pierre Gasly Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21

FIA wants to maximize the hype for the final race. No way they are going to do anything that changes the results.

888

u/King-Gray Dec 05 '21

The 5-second time penalty worked out to be a positive here? If Verstappen didn't have the 5-second time penalty and went for fastest lap, then received this...

667

u/LSFab Dec 05 '21

In that circumstance I think they would have tried to find a way to avoid giving a 10 second

557

u/TheAmazingSpider-Fan Ayrton Senna Dec 05 '21

"No investigation necessary."

"Of course, man. Of course."

131

u/Petrolinmyviens Mercedes Dec 06 '21

"We would like to see the telemetry"

"Sorry no can do"

"Why"

"It exploded. all of it. flames. just blew up. no where to be found"

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119

u/WannabeTraveler87 Red Bull Dec 06 '21

Yeah no, in that case the FIA would have faulted hamilton and verstappen equally. They will not do anything to ruin the tied WDC points going into the final race.

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u/Dxfine Dec 06 '21

Haha yeah🤣 "umm so, he was 8 seconds ahead of P3"......... 7.5 second penalty

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u/COMPLETEWASUK McLaren Dec 05 '21

Nothing like a post race perfectly selected penalty haha.

135

u/hpdeskjet6940 Dec 05 '21

That’ll teach ‘em!

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319

u/l3g3nd_TLA Dec 05 '21

Red Bull is 'lucky' not to have tried for FL at the end as the gap to Ocon was just too small. Otherwise it would have cost him P2.

510

u/RobbieFowler9 Dec 05 '21 Silver

I imagine if that was the case the penalty would be different.

Basically giving a penalty to save face but making it irrelevant to avoid affecting the championship

238

u/Alsatina91 Dec 05 '21

Exactly. If Hamilton had dnfed as a result of the collision they would have "dropped the hammer" on Max resulting in a race DSQ...and an 8 point championship lead going into the last race

91

u/CoolHandHazard Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 05 '21

And an 8 point penalty to draw them even lol

110

u/albas89 Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 06 '21

"An 8 point penalty for driver 33 (Max Verstappen), the standard penalty for this type of incident" 🥲

176

u/blastedjay Dec 06 '21

the FIA is turning into fucking Dumbeldor

63

u/JwSatan Oscar Piastri Dec 06 '21

the FIA is turning into fucking Dumbeldor

5 points to McLaren

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227

u/scootersgroove Dec 05 '21

If he was within ten seconds of Ocon the he wouldn’t have got the penalty. This is a “look we did something” type penalty designed to change nothing.

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108

u/ReverendRGreen Michael Schumacher Dec 05 '21

He probably wouldn’t have gotten a penalty in that case

83

u/slimkay Jacques Villeneuve Dec 05 '21

Yep, which shows how farcical this entire ordeal is.

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u/sandersann Dec 05 '21

Exactly. This is only for show. They are not about to do anything that will change the results on impact next race.

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417

u/TheAngryGoat Medical Car Dec 05 '21

It's one thing to apply a penalty during a race that ends up not meaning anything, but applying it after the race when you know it has zero effect just looks pathetic.

166

u/Semeron Carlos Sainz Dec 05 '21

It adds 2 penalty points. Those might have an effect later on.

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u/TheFayneTM Ferrari Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21

2 penalty points are still pretty relevant

47

u/I_always_rated_them Mika Häkkinen Dec 05 '21

Funnily Vettel got 3 for Baku.

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u/Spoof2020 Williams Dec 05 '21

"We did something. Not our fault Bottas and Ocon were so far behind this absolute weapon of a driver"

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4.4k

u/hobovision Dec 05 '21 Helpful Big Brain Time

This is what heppens when the rules for "letting a car by" are such bullshit that the drivers have to play games with DRS. These incidents are ALL the fault of the FIA having terrible stewarding and bad bad rules.

Easy fix to never see this again, is make the rule that a position must be given and held for a full sector for it to count.

1.1k

u/ArbitraryOrder Christian Horner Dec 05 '21 Wholesome

They need to turn off DRS for both drivers when you are required to let someone pass

376

u/LitPixel Dec 06 '21

Actually, probably the best idea here.

156

u/Xx_edgyusername_xX Jenson Button Dec 06 '21

Couldn’t that potentially disadvantage the victim if another car is behind them?

95

u/Tricks511 Daniel Ricciardo Dec 06 '21

It would. I think the best solution is the driver at fault MUST let the victim pass at the upcoming DRS straight.

7

u/vbfronkis David Coulthard Dec 06 '21

Yeah I think a pre-designated "forced overtake" zone and maneuver would be best. Just make it part of the drivers' meeting. If you need to hand a position back, you do it between turns x and y and the driver handing the position back pulls to the right/left side.

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406

u/ConeBone1969 Dec 05 '21

How about no DRS for one lap instead?

422

u/bubba-yo Dec 05 '21

Doesn't even need to be one lap, just the next DRS section.

130

u/MadViolin75 Dec 05 '21

Exactly. It wouldn't surprise me if this is a new reg going into next season.

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1.6k

u/secretwoif Dec 05 '21

Post 3 min old... 500 + comments. Oh boy here we go

284

u/xkoeckiiej Dec 05 '21

30 min old 4k+ comments

127

u/L1arL1ar Eagle Dec 05 '21

57 minutes old 5.3k. We're slowing down

266

u/Cyr0nium Dec 06 '21

Just trying to let the next post pass before DRS detection

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1.0k

u/oyrenp Mika Häkkinen Dec 05 '21

RB pitwall having used the word ‘strategically‘ may not have helped them here.

543

u/anon_8283592 Dec 06 '21

telemetry is what actually did him in: aka hard evidence.

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1.0k

u/Internal_Sock8875 Dec 06 '21 Silver

FIA should have told Lewis first and then told Max.

Leave no room for confusion, why they told Max first is beyond me.

827

u/Morkins324 Dec 06 '21 Helpful

Max was told first because Masi was playing "Deal or No Deal" with Red Bull, negotiating that Max would give the position back. They agreed and then immediately notified Max, while Masi had to contact Mercedes so that Mercedes could notify Lewis.

Why Masi was out there negotiating penalties is beyond comprehension though... He should be deciding on an action and then telling the teams, not negotiating with them.

The correct procedure probably should be:

1) Race Control looks at the incident and decides what action needs to occur (Verstappen gives the position back to Hamilton)

2) Race Control informs Mercedes that they will be informing Red Bull to give the position back.

3) Race Control informs Red Bull to give the position back.

4) If Red Bull refuses to comply, take it to the stewards and have the stewards decide if a penalty should apply.

187

u/Internal_Sock8875 Dec 06 '21

Yeah 100% agree and shows the lack of conviction the FIA have. And that is the perspective I am trying to bring out in my point, there shouldn't be any negotiation as you mentioned it should have been a decision made by the FIA and instructed to Lewis first and then to Max.

If Max decides to not let Lewis pass then leave it to the stewards. Their indecisive actions were the cause of that collision not that of Max or Lewis.

38

u/Timstom18 Mark Webber Dec 06 '21

Even the Sky guys were saying how strange it was to hear negotiations and they’d never heard of it before

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u/Opperhoofd123 Dec 06 '21

The negotiating happened before at the race restart right? I didn't hear any when the incident happened

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4.6k

u/IceFrost97 Dec 05 '21 Silver Gold Helpful All-Seeing Upvote This To The Stars Cake

FIA says Max braked suddenly and significantly (2.4g deceleration) as their main reason for the penalty

2.9k

u/TheresOnlyWanKenobi #WeSayNoToMazepin Dec 05 '21

Exactly. For people who read it properly, its clear that Max was decelerating gradually, and then hit the brakes again hard. I’m not sure why this is that controversial

2.1k

u/Economy_Link4609 Dec 05 '21 Silver

Exactly.

He slowed, Hamilton decided not to pass and slowed behind him, so he slowed more.

The root cause is the FIA not immediately outlawing this kind of strategic return of position to take advantage or DRS years ago the first time it was done.

What I wish would have happened is when Hamilton did not immediately pass, Verstappen would have just taken off right away and RB argue that we tried, and Hamilton clearly didn't want it.

321

u/mikeyd85 Arrows Dec 05 '21

They outlawed this in what... 2008 at Spa. Lewis got a 25 second penalty for giving a position back to Kimi then immediately passing again, in almost the exact same fashion Max did.

78

u/atomicant89 Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 06 '21

That 25-second penalty is huge by current standards, would be 5 seconds now, right? Or 10s tops. And need to factor in that the current rules/clarification about giving the place back didn't exist then, it was created because of that incident. The penalty was very controversial at the time, and gifted Massa the win which was almost pivotal in the championship.

21

u/ICEman_c81 McLaren Dec 06 '21

25 was in place of stop/go iirc since it was handed post-race

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u/zaqwe Dec 05 '21

I think they need to add to the regulations that the offending car (i.e. the one that has to give the place back) will not be eligible to use DRS in the next DRS zone after they give the place back.

112

u/j_roe Dec 06 '21

They need to also say the over-taking car can't use it either.

151

u/vvorkingclass Chequered Flag Dec 06 '21

It took two of reddit's greatest minds, but I think we found a solution.

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u/jimbobjames Brawn Dec 05 '21

That wouldnt fly though, they would have to give the place back.

521

u/fdar Dec 05 '21

But if Hamilton refuses to take it, how long do you have to keep trying to let him have it?

531

u/superAL1394 Dec 05 '21

im just imagining two drivers coming to a complete stop at the DRS line playing chicken with who crosses first

51

u/HotF22InUrArea Dec 06 '21

Ever watch a track cycling sprint race? Just like that

373

u/MrBadBadly Dec 05 '21

That's essentially what happened.

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u/liquidm Dec 05 '21

We velodrome now

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u/jamezp1 Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 05 '21

I guess the initial precedent is Spa 2008 with ham and rai. Drs has been introduced since then and the rule should probably be updated that the driver that gives position has to wait past at least 1 drs zone to attempt an overtake.

107

u/Downvote_Comforter Dec 06 '21

The fact that you can try to pass a guy half a second after you give back a place is just silly. It is wholly against the spirit of the sanction and leads to nonsense like this.

15

u/eplekjekk Jordan Dec 06 '21

Isn't this "giving the place back" just a courtesy by the race director to avoid an investigation and potential punishment? So if the race director deems the spirit of the request to not have been fulfilled, he could still ask the stewards to investigate?

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u/mathiceMCR Pirelli Medium Dec 05 '21

Regarding the root cause. The easiest solution would just be to swap positions at the next start/finish straight, right?

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u/LifeAfterHarambe Ferrari Dec 05 '21

It’s almost like people just read the post title

344

u/_hotproperty_ Formula 1 Dec 06 '21 Helpful

There's a post title? I just came in here and started arguing.

28

u/LifeAfterHarambe Ferrari Dec 06 '21

Most sensible comment in the thread

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u/jimbobjames Brawn Dec 05 '21

In this thread - people who don't know what a brake check is or how to spell brake.

345

u/flatulentpiglet Dec 06 '21 Silver

break cheque

59

u/WC1V Pirelli Wet Dec 06 '21

I’m telling you man there is no way Max would write Lewis a break cheque

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u/BabaORileyAutoParts Ron Dennis Dec 06 '21

When is the last time the Driver of the Day received 15 seconds worth of penalties?

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u/twistin_my_melon_man Valtteri Bottas Dec 06 '21

It's a yoke

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u/jk230592 Pirelli Soft Dec 05 '21

Where’s the guy in the pool pouring water on his head meme

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u/DreadWolf3 Dec 05 '21

that dude is unfairly memed! A lot of waterpolo players do that as bottled water does not have chlorine - sometimes it feels nice to get rid of water with chlorine from your face.

57

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '21

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1.3k

u/Immortalius Ferrari Dec 05 '21

the driver of Car 33 then braked suddenly (69 bar) and significantly, resulting in 2.4g deceleration

448

u/Hirnfick Dec 05 '21

Marko in post race interview: Nah he didn't brake. Maybe downshift yeah but no braking. I'm sure we'll see this on the telemetry..

175

u/Bagelz567 Fernando Alonso Dec 06 '21

Classic Marko wisdom.

77

u/ollie87 Williams Dec 06 '21

F1s Trump.

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u/SonicsLV McLaren Dec 06 '21

Well he also said RB had filed an appeal for the Lewis double yellow incident yesterday.

Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice...

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u/windy906 Dec 06 '21

We’re on at least fool me five hundred times at this point

8

u/SonicsLV McLaren Dec 06 '21

Shame on you x 498 ... shame on you...

6

u/Dependent-Interview2 Pierre Gasly Dec 06 '21

Marko says A, I believe 1/A.

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u/Toil48 Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 05 '21

Not according to people on reddit

74

u/amuse-douche Ferrari Dec 06 '21

as a new fan, it’s been pretty hard this season to sift through “wow these people know a lot more about the sport than i do” and “wow these people are full of shit”

51

u/Kselli McLaren Dec 06 '21

As a rule of thumb, people in here are full of shit

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u/TODO_getLife Charlie Whiting Dec 05 '21 Silver

Well fair enough then, if the telemetry showed he hard braked then it is what it is.

275

u/janthorpe1 Jordan Dec 05 '21

Can't argue with that.

247

u/Koteii Oscar Piastri Dec 06 '21

You’ll be surprised if you sort by controversial.

125

u/ClassicMach Haas Dec 06 '21

Or listen to Marko

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u/raya__85 Dec 06 '21

Go back in thread and find people that say it never happened

17

u/CleverLime Formula 1 Dec 06 '21

Most of the top comments were saying there was no brake at all, and they were confident af

7

u/tameikisan Dec 06 '21

There are people who are still posting that, hours after the FIA released this. Clowns.

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1.3k

u/kleutscher Dec 05 '21

So what did we learn. Next time brakecheck harder so your rival has more damage and take the 10 seconds penalty and be WDC

44

u/Omophorus Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 05 '21

Schumacher's WDC DSQ should be the precedent for that one.

265

u/SubcooledBoiling Ferrari Dec 05 '21

I am ashamed to admit that I might have done that once or twice in the F1 game

11

u/bazkie_bumpercar Dec 06 '21

10 second time penalty for you!!

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u/Sarkaraq Dec 05 '21

If Hamilton DNF'd, this would've been a DSQ.

229

u/zlickrick Dec 06 '21

Yeah but that still would have been mission accomplished by Verstappen. 8 points up heading to the last race.

102

u/Sarkaraq Dec 06 '21

Yeah, they might've added the Schumacher 1997 treatment or a points deduction.

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u/DSQ George Russell Dec 05 '21

Which is crazy because the outcome shouldn’t affect the punishment

154

u/Sarkaraq Dec 05 '21

It shouldn't, but it does. And it brings money. Next week's race is probably one of the most anticipated ones for years.

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u/omegashadow Dec 06 '21

It provides motive though. It's one thing to brake recklessly for an edge at the start of the season. Another to do it for a shot at an instant wdc win.

If outcome does not weigh into the penalty, the drivers will start treating penalties as cost of doing business.

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u/RECONXELITE George Russell Dec 06 '21

I knew max braked when Helmut Marko said he didn’t

18

u/Dense_Inspector Dec 06 '21

It's not the first time that Marko just straight up lied.

11

u/RECONXELITE George Russell Dec 06 '21

There is this meme that everytime Marko says something its basically the opposite. my go to phrase is: If Helmut Marko says the sun will shine today, take an umbrella with you.

455

u/serghrtyrt45eryh Formula 1 Dec 05 '21

You can see this in the telemetry;

Just before contact, their speeds were synced as they relatively slowly reduced from 300kmph down to 160kmph. From 160kmph Verstappen applies brakes heavily, as he immediately drops from 160 down to 120 within <0.25s.

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u/Dan4096 Honda Dec 05 '21

Gets points on licence and keeps P2

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u/clingbat Max Verstappen Dec 06 '21

So if they crash into each other and both DNF next week Max wins with 9 victories to 8 right? Because that feels like how this season is going to end.

54

u/Mchelpa Dec 06 '21

If it’s a racing incident, maybe. Schumacher 97 is worth remembering though.

76

u/TheBiggyT Dec 06 '21

I don't think the current crop of stewards have the bottle to DQ Verstappen's entire season.

16

u/RicciRocket Daniel Ricciardo Dec 06 '21

The stewards back then actually called Schumacher/Villeneuve a racing incident, the FIA WMSC disqualified him a couple of weeks afterward

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u/Davveeetaikko Max Verstappen Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21

So pretty much nothing? Doesnt affect the outcome at all.

EDIT: It sets a great precedent for the future regarding letting someone by. Im just hoping for a clean race next week and a fair WDC fight. Good luck all.

703

u/CritChanceZero Benetton Dec 05 '21

Ah. The do nothing but pretend we did something approach. A true classic.

Fine by me, wanted to watch them race it out in Abu Dhabi anyway.

178

u/AceBean27 Dec 05 '21

tbf, 10s is a pretty standard penalty for causing a collision.

Ham got 10s in Silverstone didn't he?

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u/shy247er Ferrari Dec 05 '21

Doesnt affect the outcome at all

It was always going to be this way. No way FIA tries to decide a title with one race remaining.

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u/deathclient Ferrari / Sebastian Vettel Dec 05 '21

It sets it on record who was at fault and sets a precedent for future races. Sure it didn't matter due to gain to third here but it might have. You don't decide based on the outcome but based on the incident.

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u/Jarminiatures Dec 05 '21

Just a confused mess of a situation, the FIA needs to impose a protocol for how and where on a track positions should be swapped like this.

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1.5k

u/tokenabuser Formula 1 Dec 05 '21

Wow, so they determined that Max brake checked Lewis?

693

u/SteveThePurpleCat BRM Dec 05 '21

Yep. 69bar of pressure on the brakes and 2.4g of declaration at time of impact.

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u/Mekfal Dec 05 '21

Yes.

the key point for the Stewards was that the driver of Car 33 then braked suddenly (69 bar) and significantly, resulting in 2.4g deceleration.

Where are the people saying that Max slowed down as smoothly as one possibly could?

193

u/Jester252 Dec 05 '21

They got nothing to the people in the telemetry threads who were saying Max never braked and was only downshifting

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u/anynamewilldo1840 Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 06 '21 Silver Helpful

The level headed take here would be that as the document said, at first neither wanted to cross the DRS line first. Max who doesn't get why Lewis isn't passing him stupidly hits the brakes again. Lewis, who didn't know he should be passing put himself in an awkward position instead of blowing around him.

The whole thing is a product of errors from all directions. Not everything is some sinister plot. Everyone screwed up, Max screwed up more and got penalized. Lewis still won the race.

*Edit: After chewing on this more I think this exposes a clear issue with the rules regarding how a position is traded. The FIA needs to offer some clarity on how this must work otherwise there will always be buggery with how you give the spot back.

147

u/DashingDino Dec 05 '21

I think the incident would have been avoided if masi had just told mercedes in time that lewis could overtake like they normally do

93

u/crushedcone Dec 06 '21

absolutely. FIA needs a 10 sec penalty here

21

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '21

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u/icequeeniceni Love Is Love Dec 05 '21

This. An absolute comedy of errors.

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u/youre-a-cat-gatter Dec 05 '21

This thread will be a mess

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u/574859434F4E56455254 Max Verstappen Dec 05 '21

7 minutes old, 827 comments lol

131

u/Firefox72 Ferrari Dec 05 '21

Reading is hard. People see he penalty but don't take time to read the explanation.

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u/hitchompy James Hunt Dec 05 '21

No change then

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u/FL4RE Daniel Ricciardo Dec 05 '21

I hope this leads to some sort of clarification on when and how positions should be given up when such a decision is imposed by the stewards. It doesn't make sense to me for the penalized driver being able to serve his penalty at a position most convenient to him.

9

u/not_wadud92 Dec 06 '21

Spa 08.

I still think that particular one was bullshit. But they have said you cannot tactically give up a place if you have to give it for going off track

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686

u/jaymar888 Dec 05 '21 Silver

5 mins ago "i dunno what this telemetry means eli 5!?"

Now "this is a fckin joke omg"

Remember the FIA and Stewards DO know what the telemetry means, know far more than you do, and are better informed and actually have all the facts.

104

u/Rhythm_Morgan Max Verstappen Dec 05 '21

Yeah idk what the telemetry says at all but if they said max braked then he brakes 🤷🏽‍♀️

12

u/XaarXX Dec 06 '21

I'm so confused by all the deniers, Max himself stated in an interview with Sky that he down-shifted and braked.. yet people still refuse to accept it

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u/Kitchen-Animator Sebastian Vettel Dec 05 '21

Please read it carefully, the stewards have brake telemetry data that we don't have and it clearly shows that he stamped on the brakes suddenly and hard.

473

u/DarkVader92 Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 05 '21 Big Brain Time

Lewis is 2-0 up on brake check incidents

87

u/Daniel_Av0cad0 #WeSayNoToMazepin Dec 05 '21

When did I do dangerous driving?

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u/vulartweets Red Bull Dec 05 '21

So he slowed down and did brake check then with 2.4gs of deceleration

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u/AnyHolesAGoal Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 06 '21

It's almost like the people who said Max didn't brake have no access to the data and no idea what they were talking about.

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u/TeethOfFirmino Murray Walker Dec 05 '21

I fully agree with the FIA that both drivers were fucking around trying to not lead at the DRS line. Quite glad that it won't impact the result.

FIA really needs the power to mandate when position swaps happen. They could easily say, this incident happened at T1. Drivers should swap places at T1, no arguments. Avoids all this silliness. What a weekend!

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u/Baldandblues Dec 05 '21

But what if things happen that prevent a possible switch in T1. You can't control every aspect of the race. There should just be a rule that prevents the guy being passed from taking drs advantage straight after. And a rule that prevents the driver that is being gifted the position to just say "I don't feel like overtaking right now". In combination with the rules about safe and as soon as possible should cover most situations.

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u/A___99 Kimi Räikkönen Dec 05 '21

I thought the telemetry people said Verstappen didn't brake? Now I am confused

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u/creditcardtheft Fernando Alonso Dec 05 '21

Reddit TelemetryTM

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u/KATsordogs Dec 05 '21

Telemetry was showing that Max did break but some people have no idea how to read it and pretends that they can anyway.

Also telemetry post in here had a yellow box supposedly highlighting the crash but it was in the wrong place and wasn’t highlighted the crash. That wouldn’t be a problem if people actually read the telemetry and talk accordingly.

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u/Common_Luck_4636 Dec 05 '21

He did. Folks were just spouting nonsense from data they couldn't interpret.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/M_Erzen Dec 05 '21
  1. 90% of the people here are illiterate to any nuances of this sport
  2. telemetry posted here didnt show anything about brake pressure, only on/off

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u/alexniz Dec 06 '21

Yes but many were literally saying he didn't brake at all.

Doesn't need nuance. They were all looking at the wrong part of the graph, even though the same part of Lewis' graph showed him never going off the throttle, let alone braking yet quite clearly if Lewis had been going full throttle it'd have been an enormous accident and it doesn't take long to find the video clip of incident to see he did slow and brake himself to thus know they were not looking at the right part.

Instead they didn't apply any logic to their conclusion which probably means they spent 2 seconds looking at a graph, decided not to interpret it in any way except for conclude it must match their biased preconceived scenario and commented accordingly.

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u/Stiggeh193 Dec 05 '21

Reddit experts in shambles.

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u/_hallis Dec 05 '21

Almost every thread this weekend has been clueless. For example, the hamilton yellow flag and now the telemetry. I know this is probably common sense anyway but it seems opening the comments is just a waste of time.

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u/d3agl3uk Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 05 '21

The poster marked the wrong time on the telemetry. So it was misleading.

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u/VanBusplane Lando Norris Dec 05 '21

Either way, this “race” was a joke. The FIA and Redbull/MERC. It’s just petty at this point.

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u/edsan22 Sebastian Vettel Dec 05 '21

I mean, if they know that Max did brake test Lewis then a 10 second penalty knowing full well it doesn't affect Max at the slightest is a complete farce and they know.

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u/sanesociopath Sauber Dec 05 '21

Sure doesn't change the results but just goes to further show how much of an officiating farce this weekend was

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u/ObstructiveAgreement Dec 05 '21

Also highlights the ridiculousness of the 'give the position back' decision from stewards when drivers can choose to do so in an optimum way for a DRS zone. That needs to be stopped straight away otherwise more of this will happen. It'll inevitably lead to either not being able to use the next DRS zone after such a decision or designated passing spots on each track.

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u/pengouin85 Honda Dec 05 '21

Absolutely. Hamilton Spa 2008 was essentially the same thing (but before DRS)

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u/coocoobees Chequered Flag Dec 05 '21

exactly. on one hand i get it that it should not be up to the person at fault to choose when to give back the place, on the other hand you cannot expect them to do a whole slow lap waiting for the other one to choose when to pass.

there should be clear rules about exactly when the place should be given back.

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u/cwspellowe #WeRaceAsOne Dec 05 '21

Needs to change to something like "give the position back and hold it for three corners" or similar. Then if you're still quick enough earn the DRS back the proper way

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u/sanesociopath Sauber Dec 05 '21

"Give the position back" needs to be an official penalty so they can have extra caveats like this.

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u/Zodiac4v2 Brabham Dec 05 '21

I agree but I think more of like a time based thing like hold the position for 5 seconds or something. But the FIA also need to look at their own procedures. Why would you tell the car that needs to yield the position prior to the car that is getting the position back? If they would have told Lewis first then I firmly believe we wouldn’t have had any contact.

Gotta do something to make sure these ordered position swaps happen in a consistent manor without someone getting an advantage.

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u/WardenJack Dec 05 '21

Just go to bed and please destroy this track please.

It provided no exciting racing what so ever apart from the shenanigans of the top 2. Blind corners, tons of restarts and DRS trains. Be gone!

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u/MrMhmToasty Dec 06 '21

Not to mention the very dangerous turn 23 that has now had 2 fast crashes and the potential for rebounding into the track. Definitely needs a rework.

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u/sir-mc-clive Carlos Sainz Dec 06 '21

They should just make an exact replica of Interlagos somewhere in the desert. That would be a great track.

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u/mathiceMCR Pirelli Medium Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 06 '21

As a Verstappen fan:

If they actually noted that Verstappen brake tested Hamilton, he should get a way heavier penalty. The penalty in this case just isn't compliant to the amount of danger created according to the document.

Edit: typo fix

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u/Mackiiiii Dec 05 '21

I think Mercedes is gonna appeal this and ask for a stronger penalty

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u/Sam596 Lando Norris Dec 06 '21

I can't see it. There's no new evidence which is required for the appeal.

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u/Aggressive_Question5 Dec 05 '21

They say they don't take results of incidents into account, but I find it hard to believe it would only be a 10-second penalty if that contact caused Lewis to DNF (essentially deciding the championship).

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u/optimusmike777 Dec 05 '21

Where is helmet Marko?? "VeRsTaPPen DiDn'T BrAkE"

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u/PEEWUN Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 05 '21

This is a precedent call if anything.

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u/r32_guest Sebastian Vettel Dec 05 '21

Not picking sides or anything but why did verstappen go on the middle of the track?

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u/Clever_Userfame Dec 05 '21

More like Michael Messy amirite?